An article and interview of mine from 2004.
THE SCLC MINISTER OF THE JANET RENO
USDOJ REPORT ON THE ASSASSINATION
OF MARTIN LUTHER KING. JESSE IS SUSPECTED
OF CHANGING KING'S ROOM TO GIVE THE
ASSASSINS A CLEAR SHOT. IF HE DID;
HE WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN KILLING KING.
HE WOULD LATER BE PROMOTED IN
THE AMERICAN MEDIA AS THE SUCCESSOR
TO MARTIN LUTHER KING. HE WAS NEVER
TRUSTED BY KING. BARBRA REYNOLDS
WROTE A BOOK ABOUT JACKSON
ENTITLED JESSE JACKSON: THE MAN,
THE MOVEMENT, THE MYTH. THIS BOOK
DETAILS THE SUSPICIOUS ACTIONS OF JACKSON.
HE IN MY OPINION TRULY HAS THE BLOOD OF
DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING ON HIS HANDS.
http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/crm/mlk/part6.php
http://books.google.com/books/about/Jesse_Jackson_the_man_the_movement_the_m.html?id=k1seAAAAMAAJ
In last year of his life Martin Luther King was working on a Poor Peoples Campaign, modeled on the WWI veterans Bonus March, to reinstate funding for social programs Congressional budget cuts had eliminated. His plan was to bring hundreds of thousands of poor American Citizens to the steps of Capitol Hill and encamp there until the funding was reinstated. America’s impoverished Citizens were going exercise their Constitutional Right to Free Speech and lobby their Congress to reinstate the money. Congress, which is the representative body of the American People, had diverted the money from programs committed to feeding and clothing their fellow American Citizens, in improving their conditions of existence. Instead the money was used to increase funding for the war in Vietnam that killed millions and ruined the lives of many others.
The United States government was not going to let Martin Luther King’s plan, happen out of fear of revolution. The Military feared that the encampment would end in a large scale riot that Military would not be able to quell that riot and then a national revolution would break out. The U.S. Government had for many years, in order stop Martin Luther King, been coordinating a covert effort to “neutralize” him which ultimately ended with King’s murder and a cover-up of his murder that continues till this day. The assassination of King is a matter of National Security. The information concerning Martin Luther King has largely remained Classified further deepening the mystery of the assassination. The U.S. government has hidden their files on Martin Luther King for nearly 40 years. Since his murder very little information concerning the King Assassination has come out but what has come out of the Government Vault is very troubling.
During the 1970’s some information did come to light in several Congressional Reports. The most famous of which was chaired by Senator Frank Church. His U.S. Senate Committee conducted an Investigation into the Federal Government's surveillance of its own citizens officially known as the SELECT COMMITTEE TO STUDY GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS WITH RESPECT TO INTELLIGENCE ACTIVITIES UNITED STATES SENATE or more commonly known as the Church Committee. The Committee covered such topics as Government Control of Media through their different Intelligence branches, documented the Military’s role in spying on Americans and the assassinations of the 1960's. The Military had over one thousand agents spying on American Citizens.
The FBI’s head of Domestic Counter Intelligence William Cornelius Sullivan was a star witness. He revealed that the FBI had used techniques of counter intelligence, that were normally used during War time against enemy agents, were used against King and his Southern Christian Leadership Conference. The FBI had meetings early in 1964 in which Agents discussed ways of “neutralizing” King. The “Bureau” had an elaborate electronic surveillance operation targeting King. His home phone was tapped and every hotel he stayed at was bugged. The FBI even had plans to ruin King’s marriage with a plot to recruit Coretta King, his wife, and turn her against him.
In his testimony Sullivan revealed that he had proposed a plan to J. Edgar Hoover. Which was approved by Hoover to replace Martin Luther King with a “New National Negro Leader“. The memo was Published in : SUPPLEMENTARY DETAILED STAFF REPORTS ON INTELLIGENCE ACTIVITIES AND THE RIGHTS OF AMERICANS BOOK III FINAL REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE TO STUDY GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS WITH RESPECT TO INTELLIGENCE ACTIVITIES UNITED STATES SENATE. This document shows the Government is willing to take over and control the Leadership of some political organizations they find to be a threat. It flies in direct contradiction to the Idea of Political Freedom.
William Sullivan was the number three man in the F.B.I. just behind Clyde Tolson J. Edgar Hoover's deputy dog. He, like King, died from a gunshot wound from a high powered rifle to the neck in what was declared to be a “hunting accident”. His death prevented him revealing anymore of the Government's secrets at upcoming Congressional Hearings. The Hearings revealed the Government had planted agents in the Southern Church’s Leadership Council, Martin Luther King’s organization as well as many other political organizations active in the 1960‘s.
In January of 1967, Martin Luther King was reading “Ramparts” magazine, in it he read a piece by William F. Pepper entitled, “The Children of Vietnam”, it showcased photos of Vietnamese children who had been horribly disfigured by Napalm. He then befriended William Pepper who opened his files to King. He wept in front of Pepper out of sorrow from the pictures that William Pepper showed him. Martin Luther King would come to publicly denounce the Vietnam War on 4th of April 1967 at the Riverside Church in New York. In his famous speech he said “ Even when pressed by the demands of inner truth, men do not easily assume the task of opposing their government's policy, especially in time of war.” which ring true sadly today as well. The more often quoted statement on U.S. government “the greatest purveyor of violence in the world is my own government” from the speech holds today as well. The speech alienated King. He lost the support of others in the Civil Rights Movement and his organization SCLC lost its corporate funding.
In 1967 William Pepper and Martin King worked on a grassroots political umbrella organization named the National Coalition For New Politics which culminated in a National Convention of over 5000 delegates from every walk of life in America, at the Palmer House in Chicago, on the Labor Day weekend. This National Convention was disrupted by a Chicago Gang, named the Black Stone Rangers, which had U.S. Government financial backing . They threatened to kidnap Martin King and embarrass him before the World if he did not leave. King did leave and the convention failed.
The Black Stone Rangers turned up again in the days preceding the assassination in Memphis. They caused a riot disrupting Martin Luther King’s last march in support of the Sanitation Workers Strike in Memphis on March 28th ,1967. The riot ultimately ended with the death of a young man. The National Media would paint the Invaders, a Memphis Civil Rights Group that was formed in part out of alumni from the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee and who were committed to organizing young people, as being responsible for the mayhem that disrupted at the March 28th Memphis march. It was a complete lie that the national media repeat till this day. It would take over three decades for it to finally be revealed that the Invaders were not even at the sanitation workers strike march that day.
6:00 in the evening on April 4th, 1968 on the balcony of the Lorraine Motel stood Martin Luther King at that moment he was shot down by a bullet from a high powered rifle. It was the conclusion of a coordinated effort to “neutralize” King. It would take over 30 years to uncover the truth behind the effort to murder Martin Luther King.
William F. Pepper is an Oxford Professor, International Lawyer, English Barrister and Poet. He conducted his own private investigation that uncovered evidence compelling enough to persuade a jury that the Official explanation of King’s assassination was not true. In November of 1999, he represented , CORETTA SCOTT KING, MARTIN LUTHER KING, III, BERNICE KING, DEXTER SCOTT KING and YOLANDA KING, the widow and children of Martin Luther King, in a conspiracy trial against Lloyd Jowers and OTHER UNKNOWN CO-CONSPIRATORS. The Tennessee, trial was held in Shelby county, in which the city of Memphis is situated and the execution of Martin Luther King took place. His work, which took place over the course of two decades, will have implications forever to anyone interested in the real History of the King assassination. Prior to representing the King Family he was the attorney to James Earl Ray, the man who the government and media framed as King’s assassin. The trial ended in a jury judgment in favor of the King family they were awarded 100 dollars.
Following the 1999 trial in June of 2000 the Janet Reno’s U.S. Department of Justice published a report entitled “United States Department of Justice Investigation of Recent Allegations Regarding the Assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.” The report illustrates the governments continued commitment to covering up the case. In part of the report under the heading, “Evidence Alleging The Involvement Of Dr. King's Associates”, the Justice Department cryptically commented on two associates of Martin Luther King's under the pseudonyms “Memphis Minister” and the “SCLC Minister”. The facts that Dr. William Pepper has uncovered concerning these two “Ministers” have serious consequences that need to be considered by those in political movements for social change. It is disturbing to think the Government turned people or used moles in Martin Luther King's organization in order to Kill him.
In this conversation he comments on the Invaders, some of whom testified at the Memphis Trial, who were falsely accused of disrupting the Memphis Sanitation workers strike on the 28th of March 1968 and who were mysteriously dismissed by Jesse Jackson just prior to the assassination of King on the 4th of April 1968. Members of the Invaders testified at the 1999 Memphis trial claiming that Jackson ordered them out. (a full transcript of the Lloyd Jowers trial can be found at the King Center website. William Pepper also talks about the behavior of some in King’s inner circle in regards to the Lorraine Motel and Funeral of Dr. Martin Luther King. He also talks about the government's involvement in controlling the national media, and some current events.
DEFINITIONS
902nd A branch of Army Special Forces.
Eric Galt was an employee of Union Carbide Corporation in Toronto Canada . He had a Top Secret U.S. government clearance. James Earl Ray used his identity in 1967-1968.
Ralph Abernathy Vice President and treasurer of SCLC; He shared the motel room that King stayed in the last days of his life.
John Downey
William C. Sullivan The FBI’s third in command and its head of Domestic Counter Intelligence.
MKULTRA A mind control experiment conducted by the CIA.
Reverend James Lawson He was the leader of SCLC in Memphis. The man who invited Dr. King to Memphis to help lead the Sanitation Workers Strike.
Reverend Jim Orange Field organizer for SCLC.
Alan Belmont FBI Agent.
Jim Harrison Comptroller of SCLC and long time FBI informant.
Col. Fletcher Prouty He was the inspiration for the Mr. X character in Oliver Stone's movie JFK.
L. L. Lemnitzer Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in 1962.
Operation NORTHWOODS Top Secret Plan of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to commit terrorist acts against Americans in order to justify a war with Cuba.
SCLC Southern Christian Leadership Conference the organization led by Martin Luther King.
INTERVIEW
Holloway: Using the facts that you have collected on the case what is the most likely scenario from beginning to end?
Pepper: I think that I have pretty much spelled that out. A decision was taken to kill Martin King at one point. It may have been taken a lot earlier a variety of efforts did not catch on but it reached a crisis stage in 1967 and it was decided that he would be taken out and he would not be able to be around to take that mob to Washington in the Spring of 1968. I think that was a pretty firm decision that was taken that was finalized sometime in the course of 1967. He was then, I think, initially they had planned to kill him in Los Angeles not in Memphis and it got switched there was a more friendly containable situation I think in Memphis than even in Los Angeles. Though they kept Ray in Los Angeles for quite a period of time. It got switched to Memphis. James was moved into the South East and then the plot was set up to get him into Memphis related to the sanitation workers strike which of course he started discussing the possibility of going there in February of 1968 and certainly by the second week of March was well within the frame of being inclined to go and James of course was moved then a little bit later in that month into Atlanta, New Orleans and then Birmingham. It evolved from the motivations that we have identified the forces put together to do it had been planning this throughout the summer of 1967 but I think probably that the decision had been taken in early 1967 to develop this plot. I believe that James was assisted in his escape now which I haven’t been able to deal with before but now there is some information coming to light. I believe that James was assisted and was handpicked as the patsy. I will be able to develop that more at another time. That being the case he escaped in April and was on the run from that time on and the decision would have been taken prior to that time. I think it was sometime early in 1967 then the decision was taken. The mechanics and the details of it were not finalized until later on, when they chose Memphis but then They worked through the Marcello organization The 902nd had a joint venture with the Marcello organization anyway and they worked through them and they used the Mafia as the plausible deniable front people. In the event that anything happened with the patsy they could fall back on a Mob killing. It was a mob killing in the sense that Marcello put it together with his crowd in Memphis. The whole thing was coordinated in my view by the 902nd.
Holloway: Who, in the United States Government, had prior knowledge of the assassination?
Pepper: I think was coordinated by John Downey. He had knowledge of everything, he organized everything in my view coordinated the whole operation he was acting under orders from the Office of the Assistant Chief of Staff of Intelligence. It went up the ladder. Now how much the Chief of Staff knew, the Secretary of Defense knew, the President knew, I think that in the earlier stages they all knew that this was a foot because it had been sanctioned but it is unlikely that they knew the details at those levels until very much later on. I think that J. Edgar Hoover was knowledgeable from the outset because he was going to play a critical role in the cover-up I think that he had to know and did know. I think that Intelligence knew across the board and there was some participation by Central Intelligence and so it was a interagency operation in that sense a good number of people knew at the Government level and a good number of people knew and have known all along have known to this day what the scenario was and in terms of the Military would probably try to justify it because of the potential of revolution taking place on the streets of Washington. That’s the scenario as I see it. The Military did not kill him but they did coordinate it and they did organize the Mob.
Holloway: I have heard recently that the Government is going to release some of the MURKIN files any comments? Or do you happen to know what those files are going to be?
Pepper: I have not got a clue, but know that we have for a long time tried to get files released as did James when he was alive I do not know that they are not going to be and have not been for many years sanitized..
Holloway: Was James Earl Ray part of the MKULTRA program?
Pepper: I do not believe so. He was involved in some program when he was in the Army that had to do with I think Psychological testing and evaluation and assessment of people under stress and things of that sort but I do not think that Ray was part of the MKULTRA program to the best of my knowledge. I don’t think that he was hypnotized on the day. I have seen evidence and information leading me to believe that Sirhan Sirhan may well have been hypnotized at the time of the killing of Bobby Kennedy. But I do not think that James was in that kind of situation.
Holloway: You write in your book that James Earl Ray had plastic surgery.
Pepper: Yeah he changed his nose he thought it was a good idea.
Holloway: Was the point the surgery to make him look like Eric Galt?
Pepper: You mean did they do that to make him look like Eric Galt? I do not even know whose idea it was. I do not think that it was James’ idea it may well have been but I think that it may have been suggested to him by someone like a lot of things were and I think that he thought he was simply trying to change his appearance that's all. Now whether there was some activity behind the scenes at work with the surgeon to make him look like Galt that is another matter. I do not know. It is certainly not inconceivable.
Holloway: Do have any plans to write a book on Ray?
Pepper: No, as far as I am concerned the case is pretty much behind me there will be a paperback coming out. I am satisfied that it is over.
Holloway: What was the driving force behind you in pursuing this case all of these years? What was your main motivation?
Pepper: The desire to find and get to the truth as to how Martin King was killed. And to strip away the cover-up which has existed.
Holloway: In your book ORDERS TO KILL, you have a picture of the Reverend James Lawson with the caption “Dr. King’s closest advisor and most trusted colleague, in Memphis in 1968". Why was Reverend Lawson and not any of the other members of SCLC “the closest advisor and most trusted colleague”?
Pepper: He was the leader of SCLC in Memphis. SCLC did not have a large Memphis chapter and Lawson had been a member of SCLC and its board for quite a while. There was no one of his stature in Memphis.
Holloway: In your book you write about the Reverend Samuel “Billy” Kyles. How did you come to know about the speech he gave where he says that He walked down the stairs to give him a better shot?
Pepper: That was uncovered I think by Reverend Orange. It was somebody who attended a speech that Kyles was giving in Mississippi and it was filmed and they got a copy of that and they sent it on to me. And I sent it onto the Family. I think it was Jim Orange. I am not sure. It was somebody who was present.
Holloway: Kyles was Impeached on the stand during his testimony at the Lloyd Jowers Trial. How come you did not examine Reverend Kyles during the trial?
Pepper: Because I have such strong emotional antipathy towards him. When I examined him and cross-examined him at the Television trial in 1993. I really felt myself, my anger rising to an inappropriate level. And the Judge at that trial had to ask me to keep away from the witness because I was so angry with him. And I have nothing but disdain for him and the role that he played and the lies that he has told over the years. So I felt that it was better that that examination be handled by someone who was more detached and could be cooler more methodical. Than might of been If I had done it. Now, if it was the right thing to do or not, I do not know I mean I think that she did a good job because we set out the examination pretty well. So I think that she did a good job but I think that I would have been more aggressive. Which could have been a good thing or not a good thing.
Holloway: Did Dr. King have an opinion of Kyles?
Pepper: Kyles was a local minister and they were going to have dinner, a Barbeque at his place that evening that was the invitation that was set up but I mean Kyles was nobody he was not a part of SCLC. He was not even a part of SCLC.
Holloway : How did you come to represent Coretta King in the Lloyd Jowers Trial?
William Pepper: They asked me to. I had known the family for years and this was a an issue the trial came up and I discussed it with them. I suggested to them that this is one possible way of opening up the evidence and they said lets go ahead and do it.
Holloway: What role in your opinion did Jesse Jackson play in the assassination?
William Pepper: I don’t know. I raise factual questions as to Jacksons Behavior. That's all I can do. To Its suspicious that he wanted the Invaders out of there yet he nothing do with them really. He was instrumental in getting them out of there.
Holloway: Is he the SCLC minister mentioned in the US DOJ Report under Janet Reno?
William Pepper: He was the SCLC Minister.
Holloway: You and Jesse Jackson both spoke at the Thirtieth Anniversary of the King Assassination at the Lorraine Motel, is there anything that you would like to discuss about anything you and Jackson might have talked about?
Pepper: No our paths have crossed several times nothing of substance has ever been said. Jackson and I have locked horns before on the Larry King Show. He has in my view been inconsistent in terms of the positions he has taken in respect of the case
Holloway: In the 1990's Coretta King asked for a truth and reconciliation committee be established in order investigate what happened in the 1960. Would Jesse Jackson be among those you would offer immunity?
Pepper: I think that a whole range of people might be offered immunity. By such a commission but of course there has never been such a commission nor is there ever likely to be.
Holloway: According to your book and the testimony of the invaders you have Jackson glancing at his watch just prior to the assassination because he was waiting to go to dinner a Reverend Billy Kyle's house. If Jackson had been invited to dinner then why would he be looking at his watch?
Pepper: He had been invited to dinner at the time at which he was looking at his watch was at the time when the actual house keeper was at the door of the invaders room telling them they had to leave. It was not when they were already leaving it was about ten to fifteen minutes before that when she came to the door. One of the looked over their shoulder and saw Jackson looking at his watch. At that point in time.
Holloway: What role in your opinion did Ralph Abernathy play in the assassination?
Pepper: I don’t know if Ralph played any role. Other than the fact that Ralphs Behavior and his conduct is strange in terms of room 306. He has not told the truth in terms of room 306 he said that it had always their room, they always used that room. They had never stayed the night at the Lorraine before. They had stayed there for meetings during the day. But the meetings were not in room 306 but actually in room 307. Then he said when they got there that the room was occupied and they had to be given another room because someone was in it. Well there was no one in it so that was not the case they went straight to the room He has made strange statements in respect to that room. Martin was supposed to be downstairs, a lower room in the courtyard room 202 He got moved up to that room. Ralph did not come out on the balcony with him he stayed inside ostensibly to put on some after shave or something that did not make a lot of sense. He did say that Reverend Billy Kyles was not in the room that I believe is certainly true. His behavior there is strange. His behavior when he passed by the corpse was strange. He had a big grin as he patted martin on the cheek. So said a detective of whom I believe a very truthful guy. Who was standing between a group of lockers and saw Ralph come through said that “Ralph was grinning from ear to ear”. There was no sadness in this man's face. All of that raised questions because those things happened and I knew Ralph of course Ralph was a friend.
Holloway: Did all of this put a strain on your friendship with Ralph Abernathy?
Pepper: No because all of this came out very much later on after Ralph had died. When the detective told me this story. He lied about eating one fish. The two of them sharing their one catfish. Because they brought up only one plate instead of two. When in fact they had two plates. I interviewed the maid who brought up the second plate. So they did have two plates they did not have one. He lied about that and that just makes you uneasy. When you get that series of circumstances. And somebody called from SCLC to change the room. That is at least one of the options of how the room got changed. And who would have done that? No one in Martins office did it. And of course Jim Harrison worked under Ralph. And Jim Harrison was an FBI informant.
Holloway: In the history of counter intelligence there are many cases of the use of plants to take over political organizations. In 2002 the London Guardian put out an article claiming that in the 1960's the leader of the neo-Nazi movement in Germany was a MI-6 agent, in a 1969 issue of the NY Times there was an article about Gloria Steinem having been financed by the CIA. And in a Left-Wing feminist Magazine entitled REDSTOCKINGS FOIA that showed that Steinem had done some spying at the World Youth Festival held in Vienna in 1959. In lieu of the 1964 memo of William C. Sullivan to Alan Belmont outlining a plan for a New National Negro leader and the promotion of Jackson in the media which is manipulated by the FBI is Jackson that man mentioned in the memo?
Pepper: I do not know about that man. They were talking about a man named Pierceson.They had somebody far more senior and docile in mind as a successor to King. I am forgetting who the guy was now. It was a relatively prodigious or well known, not that well known nationally sort of docile uncle tom type character. However Jesse was also clearly in terms of the activist mode. He was clearly the guy who was more dynamically a successor. Jesse had the support of Strom Thurmond coming into Chicago to see Richard Daley which is an unusual letter of support to get from a man like Strom Thurmond for a man like Jackson but he had that. His letter on introduction to Daley came from Strom Thurmond. It is questionable also returned to Chicago that night of the killing and was on the Today Show the next day showing his bloody shirt which he had carefully orchestrated to get. There are a lot of questions of this sort. There are a lot of these barely smoking guns. It is neither fair nor right to say other than to state what you can of a factual basis and let people draw their own conclusions. The FBI had Jim Harrison he was the controller of SCLC. He worked right under Abernathy. He was a long term FBI informant. Harrison was a major and I mean major Informant for the bureau.
Holloway: Jackson was also an associate of FBI informant Al Sharpton, any comments?
Pepper: He still is I think. Once you start down that road I think you don’t leave it.
Holloway: I notice that you use the Church Committee hearings in your book wouldn’t you say that the committee still played the role of covering up the governments own role in suppressing political dissent?
Pepper: I would agree with that.
Holloway: How do people who love their country form a movement to counter act these forces? And see our country improved?
Pepper: You need an issue for organizing and you need to organize people at every level and that was where we were 37 years ago. It might be the anti globalization movement because there is such a network now of people who are concerned about the environment, the planet globalization and offsetting corporate greed. That maybe the way to go. I don’t know in America there obviously a worldwide movement, this a worldwide movement , and there should be sufficient activity in America. I America it has to be more of an umbrella than that. If you are reaching out only to students, the idea would be to reach out to student chapters all over the country of an international organization just put those chapters out there and get them going, even if you have some chapters with only one or two people or three or four, you build chapters the goal should be maybe through the internet to develop a chapter in every campus in the United States or every campus of reasonable size in the United States and begin to link a movement together, through the internet first and then call for a national convention we did not have the internet (In the 1960's), the internet is a marvelous organizing tool, because so many young people and activists are into it. The beginning of that kind of chatting and the formation of a nationwide organization that is once again concerned with peace justice and the planet might catch on and then you develop these links and then call for a physical convention to be held somewhere let each of the chapters send delegates and then have meetings and begin to build a movement that way. And in the states that is for the students and for young people, intellectuals and so forth, if one really wants to tap into the broader community one really has to then focus on economic issues which are terribly important, you have to focus on the problem with jobs people are having in America, and begin to link in that way, to the unemployed, to welfare people, and others who may not have that access to internet but never the less they can be reached out to. I think that if there is enough desire to do that. I would say is how one should begin and just begin to develop that way.
Holloway: How do we counteract the inevitable response by the powers that be of using tactics such placing plants in organizations and assassinations?
Pepper: You can't there is nothing you can do. You just begin build the movement, be much more suspicious, much more cynical and much more aware of plants and if you are on to them you can discern them, you can find them, people take irrational positions designed to put forward policies that would discredit a movement, you immediately begin to get suspicious, you have to be as duly diligent as you possible can and that is all you can do, you will be infiltrated there will be people watching there will be people listening and there is nothing you can do about it. You simply have to go about building the movement and the more people who get into it the stronger it gets.
Holloway : What are your thoughts on the violent disruptions that have occurred at the IMF meetings? Do you think that movement should mainly be non-violent in the sense of non-violent direct action. How do we stop the disruption of the non-violent demonstrators at these meetings?
Pepper: You will always have problem with provocateurs, you will always have a problem with disruption but I think that policies programs and outreach should be a part of the plan of the development of any movement, direct action should definitely be a part of it, civil disobedience should definitely be a part of it, but these are decisions that an organization should take in meeting, these are decisions that an organization would have to take as a matter of developing their own policies and programs. The first thing that you need to do is get that kind of organizing going and get that kind of core group going throughout the country, You might start with regional coordinators for example, everything is possible, there is one group talking about just going into the state of New Hampshire and becoming politically active in numbers.
Holloway: Are there any political organizations that you would recommend to people to join?
Pepper: You any number, the clergy and laymen concerned have always been good, the national reconciliation group, human rights watch, the society of friends has always been good they would all be organizations that would come into a national umbrella they are individual organization and they are scattered around. you need a national organization probably with regional directors who would be responsible for organizing campuses in the various regions, you might even start off with twelve regions in the united states and twelve directors and each one would have a responsibility for developing campuses labor unions and so forth you must start reaching out on the internet reaching out to people in various parts of the country and plug in people working on 9-11, people who are working against the war, there are an enormous amount of organizations issues single issue orientated organizations that should be brought in they will all have their ax to grind there axes are all part of a total concern for democracy.
Holloway: In the course of doing this work I talked to Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn. Howard Zinn surprised me in that he was virtually unaware of your work. Zinn seemed quite interested when I told him that the full Lloyd Jowers trial Transcripts could be found at the thekingcenter.com website, he told me that he would take a look at it. And for maybe the first time he said in an interview that it would make theoretical sense that the assassinations of the 1960's involved the government He was very adamant that he was speaking theoretically.
Pepper: That's strange he was not aware of the work at all?
Holloway: He knew that you had written some books but he did not know the titles of your books, he did not seem to know that there had been a trial against Lloyd Jowers, he knew that the King Family had their doubts. I was quite shocked at his level of ignorance he had of the case given the fact that he was involved in SNCC and is a friend of Reverend James Lawson who testified in the case.
Pepper: Its strange its strange, but he is very influenced by Chomsky.
Holloway: Chomsky in my talk with him he insinuated that work on the assassinations was unimportant. He denigrated the work of Col. Fletcher Prouty. It was a heated phone call. For some reason luminaries such as Chomsky and Zinn have missed the boat on recognizing the Historic Moment that The Lloyd Jowers trial was. I can Only speculate as to why. When he denigrated the work of Col. Fletcher Prouty I called Len Osanic of Black Op Radio
Pepper: Yes, I know Len. He is putting together two volumes of my poetry and setting it to music. I am working fairly closely with him. He is a good guy Len.
Holloway: He said that Prouty had a nickname for Noam Chomsky he called him Noam Chumpski, They were definitely on bad terms. I think that Chomsky does a lot of good work there are many points I agree with him on. I do not understand why Chomsky has taken the position on the assassinations of the 1960's when his positions are in direct contradiction to the facts. In 1993 Chomsky put out his book rethinking Camelot which is the same year Oliver Stone's Movie JFK came out which is strange in terms of its timing. The book really took aim at Stones contention that JFK was going to move out of Vietnam. Luminaries such as Chomsky and Howard Zinn seem to have missed the boat in terms of your work.
Pepper: Either he is one of the deepest cover guys that there is or it is somehow a principled belief he cannot get beyond its strange you know it took me a long time to realize that Anthony Lewis of the NY Times was a deep cover agent a long time, I know that they had twelve agent on the Times.
Holloway: Chomsky’s book Rethinking Camelot came out the same year as Oliver Stone's JFK in terms of it timing it could be view as suspicious. It came the same time as Posner’s book.
Pepper: Posner has gone quiet on the King case.
Holloway: Why has the press mostly ignored reporting on the Martin Luther King Assassination?
Pepper: It is the Army and the role of the military which cannot now be attacked for very obvious reasons. There role in the history of America has been covered up for so long centuries They don’t want to get into that. Just like they don’t want to get into impeachment. In my life time these are the worst impeachable offenses I have seen of any president commit.
Holloway : Kevin Philips in his book lays out the history of the Bush family It makes you wonder about the level of corruption that is in our society. In the 1930's IG FARBEN and Standard Oil of New Jersey were merged. And, from what I understand Standard Oil shared the Patents for Synthetic Rubber and Synthetic Fuel with IG Farben. The war probably lasted a good two years longer than it had to. If the Germans did not have synthetic rubber for tires or synthetic fuel to put in their planes their war machine would have come to a halt.
Pepper: It's about money. That of course is what Iraq was about; its marvelous sea of oil and that is what Venezuela is about as well. But You have to bash on as best you can under the circumstances and do what is possible. Zinn doesn’t have a copy of the book does he? I thought that we had one sent to him.
Holloway: To me he seemed quite unaware to me and once I had broached the subject he began to get a bit antsy. Zinn seemed like a much more genuine man than Chomsky. I think that he is holding back. I wonder if sooner or later he will take a stand instead of sitting on the fence because I asked him do you think that James Earl Ray was the shooter? And he said “I don’t know”.
Pepper: He is not going to make a statement if he does not know enough about the case It took me ten years to convince myself that he was not involved at all. I was convinced that he was not the shooter after spending five hours with him.
Holloway: Who are the Black Stone Rangers?
Pepper: They were and still are a Chicago Gang, a Black Gang. They are the best known of the Chicago Gangs. They are South Side Gang they ran things back in those days in that area of the city. They also managed to get from what I understand federal funding at various times and I think were clearly operating at the Convention in 1967 with the support of the Government.
Holloway: That was at 1967 Labor Day Convention for the grassroots organization, the Coalition for a New Politics held in Chicago?
Pepper: Yes.
Holloway: The Black Stone Rangers were also involved in disrupting Dr. King’s March 28, 1968 Memphis Sanitation Workers Strike March?
Pepper: Yes and that is what the Invaders believe as well.
Holloway: The Invaders conducted an investigation and concluded that the march was disrupted by the Black Egyptians from St. Louis and the Black Stone Rangers from Chicago. How did they come to that conclusion?
Pepper: The Invaders interviewed people and they know people in both cities. They got their information that way.
Holloway: In your book Orders to Kill you reveal that the Intelligence Division of the Memphis Police Department burned their records from the King assassination. Do you know how much evidence the Government has destroyed?
Pepper: I don’t know, I suspect the Government has destroyed an awful lot of stuff. I suspect also that there is an awful lot of evidence in the bowels of the Pentagon. That they are determined to never see the light of day. But has been maintained. We brought a lawsuit Ben Alacorn filed a lawsuit for us on the issues of the photographs and the photographer who were on the roof of the fire station and they maintain they did not have anything and that the photographs did not exist. May be they have destroyed those. I would not be surprised If they had somehow.
Holloway: From what I understand there were stills and a full motion picture of the King Assassination.
Pepper: I only know about still’s.
Holloway: Do you think that will you ever be able to test the Rifle?
Pepper: The gun has been tested. We tested it pretty extensively one of the problems is that the gun has been fired a good deal and no one knows how much it has been fired. But apparently people connected to who clerk's office in Memphis used to take it out on weekends occasionally and fire it. It has been fired a good deal. There seems to be an inability for it to give consistent striate. In the test fires. Although it does up to a point and we are able to distinguish it from the death slug. This whole thing got turned on its head. Normally in murder cases you have to match the death slug to the murder weapon. If you cannot do that, there is no gun in evidence end of story you do not have the murder weapon. It’s not the murder weapon. If you go to the Memphis Civil Rights Museum today you will see that gun in a big glass case sitting there as the murder weapon. Its absolute craziness. And they put the burden on us to try to eliminate the gun which is a very hard thing to do and to prove the negative in other words that it was not the murder weapon.
Holloway: Did James Earl Ray’s coerced confession allow the government to destroy evidence?
Pepper: James did not confess what James did was to stipulate to a list of allegations in order to cop a plea. That is what people do when they cop pleas as opposed to confessing. He gave an affidavit stipulation in order to get that plea and he was really pressed into that and should have never done it. Never the less he was isolated and those were the pressures that were put on him so he did it. Yes that claimed to close the case and made it virtually impossible for him to get a new trial but that is still no excuse for destroying any records or any evidence. And that is obviously what they did.
Holloway: Why do you think that the mainstream media treated your work the way they did?
Pepper: Consolidation and control of the media in the United States is pretty complete now. In cases and matters that they regard as critical to National Security. They are just going to bury it. They are not going to air it. Any discussion of this sort and particularly in respect to the Army. The Army is a sacred cow and they bend over backwards to always hide the role and involvement of the Army in civilian life in American society. They have played a major role for a long time and will continue to play a major role. An increasingly major role in my view.
Holloway: Could you explain the role that the Military has played historically in society?
Pepper: It has run through surveillance and monitoring infiltration of organizations electronic surveillance and presumably now visual surveillance but the electronic surveillance and wire tapping has gone back to the beginning of the 20th Century. And they did that to King. They do that to people who are potential threats to the National Security of the United States. That is their role. That is what they have done. And that has been revealed at various times and various though muted Congressional Reports and Hearings. To the point where Sam Irvin was very concerned about the constitutionality of a lot of the activities of the military. But, they are such a powerful force in public life in America it is difficult to go against them. Now the media is not going to take that on and the Media is primarily controlled and tries to foster a sense of security and comfort to masses of people who are upon whom the economic system the consumer society depends. People are not going to go out and spend money if they feel anxious and uncertain about things. They are going to spend money when they are reasonably secure and they think their government is functioning and democracy as they have been taught it is bounding throughout the land. When you start to raising the kind of issues that a King Assassination any of the assassinations, the Kennedy’s, Malcolm X raise you tend to undermine the comfort a consumer economy requires.
Holloway: In your book you bring out the FBI memos that show that the U.S. news media is infiltrated and in large part controlled by the government. Do you think that this story will ever see the light of day?
Pepper: Carl Bernstein published that story in the 1970's. In a Rolling Stone piece and he was the one who first opened my eyes to it. He said that there were over Four-Hundred agents at that time in major Television networks, newspapers and radio stations. He said that the New York Times had Twelve people on its staff from 1959 Sulzberger gave Alan Dulles Twelve.
Holloway: Is the United States, in your view, a police state in the same sense as a NAZI Germany?
Pepper: No, it is much more subtle. Americans in my view have perfected to a degree never done in the world before the ability to control masses of people, population, the citizenry by creating an illusionary world. By rationalizing all kinds of illegal and unconstitutional actions in any number of ways. One by undermining in the educational system the significance of the BILL OF RIGHTS and Constitutional Law and protections then by controlling the media and having a rationale an ability to persuade people that everything is fine basically with hints of dissent. The allowing of dissent and fellows like Krugman to write for the Times. I even saw an Op-Ed piece by Chomsky not too long ago in the Times that was the first time ever. They have never published an Op-Ed by him but he is there now. They allow this kind of ineffective dissent by The Nation peripheral, insignificant, almost elitist intellectually available to dissenting voices which never reaches the masses. They haven’t got a clue about most of this stuff because they don’t read it. They are not interested. They haven’t got the time. Too busy with two jobs supporting families paying bills preoccupies so much of their daily life that they cannot function properly as citizens; if they wanted to. They really have to dig hard to find this stuff to become informed in this society.
Holloway: So, we live in a Platonic World in the sense that Plato’s political views have become rooted in our society. Especially in light of the fact that the media creates an illusionary world akin to the Plato’s Cave, where people are fooled into believing the shadows are reality.
Pepper: I think that’s the case. The producer of the Soprano’s said in a recent he said that it is our job to, one of the reasons he does not want to work in television any more he said the job of television productions to encourage people to go out and buy to make them feel like buying purchasing things and so you can only go so far in terms of what you air and the kind of programs that you do because you do not want to upset people because they are not going to buy.
Holloway: Doesn’t he also perpetuate the illusion that the Federal Government is doing something about the Mafia. When for years they were protected by the Director of the F.B.I., J. Edgar Hoover who refused to even acknowledge the existence of the Mafia. The U.S. government also used gangsters such as Lucky Luciano to run post World War Two Italy.
Pepper: Well they had him. They owned Hoover. They had photographs of him engaged in homosexual activity with his number two Clyde Tolson. It was Frank Costello who showed Hoover the photographs and he told him you can have it one or two ways Edgar you can have a great life and be guests at all of our clubs and race tracks and we do not exist. Or if you insist that we are going to exist and go after us then we are going to ruin you. We got the ability to do it with the photographs. Meyer organized that. So, they owned Hoover for a long time almost all of his life basically. This happened back in the 1920's when he was still a fledgling bureaucrat. Maybe it was just after Roosevelt appointed him. The Mafia took control of him at an early age because of the homosexual activity. That is why he denied there was a Mafia. He got embarrassed in 1952 or 1954 with the Appalachian situation. When a New York State trooper blew the whistle on this Mob meeting up in Appalachia. Then he had to sit up and take some notice but even then they did very little. That is historical in recent times they have gone after Mafia because there is no protector of that sort. Although the intelligence agencies will use them for plausibly deniable purposes. There is no one really protecting the Mafia the way it used to, as I see it. And they have as a result hurt the Mafia Families pretty badly in terms of some operations.
Holloway: It seems to me that on the one hand T.V. Programs like the Sopranos make people think that the Federal Government is going after the Mafia but on the other hand we know that the CIA has been running drugs into the United States and since the Mafia is involved in distributing drugs that the relationship between the two is still strong. But getting back to King could you talk about the Philosophical influence of John Ruskin on Dr. King. Could you comment on his importance?
Pepper: Ruskin is a giant. He was the senior political economist of his day. He was upper class English man who effectively founded art criticism he was the most respected art critic of his day. He could make or break painters simply with a stroke of his pen. He was Victorian but he thought it unconscionable that any society that calls itself civilized should allow the degree of degradation of human beings that he saw about him in capitalist Victorian times. He said that one must look after ones people, and regard even the worst criminals as products of society to be dealt with humanely. That was the under pinning of Gandhi and Gandhi’s social conscience and concern. Of course Gandhi developed the tactic of non-violence out of that but Martin King tactically took on the Gandhian commitment to non-violence. King was closer to Ruskin in terms of the mal distribution of wealth. The necessity of taking care of the poor the wretched of the Earth.
Holloway: I would now like, to change the subject, to ask your opinion about a man you have worked closely with the President of Venezuela Hugo Chavez. He has recently made a speech in which he said that he will cut off oil exports to the U.S. Is he the kind of man who makes idol threats or is he serious?
Pepper: He is very serious. If America does not keep its hands off Venezuela. He called Bush an asshole in the same speech and he said If you come down here and try to militarily intervene he said this not Iraq and you have no idea what you are going to face and he will shut off the oil there is no question about that he does not make idle threats he is very serious and angry that the United States has continued to interfere ever since the coup of 2002, which the Americans were behind. They have been interfering and trying to intervene in Venezuela. The Fund for the International Endowment for Democracy which is an intelligence front has spent millions and millions of dollars in various opposition organizations in Venezuela to try and undermine the government. He is now fed up I have not seen him in quite a while but when I was first there I told him not to tolerate this and if he knew where the agents were, there are about 1000 CIA operatives there in Venezuela. And, if they were foreigners to throw them out of the country.
Pepper: As I have said the Libertarians are looking to New Hampshire. The best state to try to build a model of democracy within the belly of the empire is North Dakota I came to that conclusion a long time ago It is just a question of finding the resources and the wear withal to go to North Dakota. The reason North Dakota is the best state in union to do it is because it is the only state that I had found at the time where you had initiative and referendum possibilities with respect to legislation and all elected officers. It is a remarkably broad constitution of power that the people have in the State of North Dakota. I thought that this would have been the place to do it. I drew the conclusion, that the best way to change this nation is to build a model inside it to take over one state.
Holloway: Is the Establishment backing away from Bush and moving toward John Kerry?
Pepper: I think that there are powers, the Rockefeller wing of the Republican party that would like to see a John Kerry in as President. Because a John Kerry is much safer man than Bush. He would once again tend to legitimize the system. He would be better. Dean would be too dangerous although I think that dean would come to the center. Kerry is far more acceptable. He is certainly an establishment kind of guy with a liberal bent. In many ways his is worse in terms of a movement for social change, because it will con a lot of people into thinking that the system works. I am just finishing an article now calling for impeachment.
Holloway: Have you heard any call for impeachment there is this eerie silence across the land?
Pepper: Ramsey Clark Called for impeach in the days leading up to the war. Well now the case is much stronger with even the governments own witness coming out saying there were no weapons. I have analyzed Bush’s own statements they are absolutely categorical, he did not even qualify them. We led into war and the deaths of young Americans and to an escalating budget deficit that is going to be housed by future generations on the basis of mendacity.
Holloway: Would you care to comment on the Lemnitzer Plan or Operatrion NORTHWOODS?
Pepper: Throughout history governments have used provocative acts in order to accomplish their means. President Polk did this back in 1846 if you want to look at the whole Mexican War, because he wanted to get he wanted to seize that territory so he fabricated the story that Americans had been shot by Mexicans in order to justify going to war. There are these long historical roots. Salisbury did this in England to justify going after the IRA with a vengeance and set up through MI-5 infiltration of the IRA he set up a assassination plot against Queen Victoria in order to do this. This is what governments do and throughout history done this. Julius Caesar did this to Mark Antony for goodness sake. They do this in order to convince the people that they have to go to war Pearl Harbor maybe an example of that Tonkin bay is an example of that history is replete with these kind of incidents. So people should not be adverse to the possibility that this happened in Oklahoma City and it could of happened in New York City.
Holloway : It seems as though we have gone against the values that this country was founded on. This country was founded by radicals that were forced out of England?
Pepper: But when they came here though. You know what Phonole said? He said that the wretched of the Earth when they take power often manifest the worst traits of their oppressors. When an oppressed people take power they often manifest the worst traits of their oppressors because that is what they have learned, that is what they have been taught that people in power ought to behave. When the pilgrims came to these shores fleeing oppression certainly they then tended very often to be very strict very controlling you had all kind of horrific situations such as the ones that grew up in Salem that cause Roger Williams to flee Massachusetts and come down to Rhode Island. It is complicated and it is unfortunate that people do this but that one looks for exceptions but one has to learn from history in order to carve out a new way.
Holloway: Why is the United States a place where many Black families and White families share common relatives yet do not seem to recognize each other as family?
Pepper: Martin King used to say that technologically we had made the world a neighborhood but had yet to make it a brotherhood. I must get going.
Holloway: Thank you Mr. Pepper.
